Posts by Cold Steel

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

I think this discussion has gotten a little bit out of control. First, it has NOTHING to do with Mormonism. Just because I happen to be one doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't mean I'm trying to convert anyone to my beliefs (since I've believed animals have spirits long before I was a Mormon).

It also doesn't mean that animals or human have spirits, souls, whatever you want to call it. Originally, I was going to title this thread, "Do YOU Believe Animals Have Spirits?" and subsequently decided to delete the words "YOU" and "Believe" for clarity and brevity. I also intended for the thread to be lighter in nature and not so datgum dogmatic.

Who among us can definitively say whether animals or humans have spirits, anyway? There's no way to prove it scientifically or theologically. I just wanted your opinions. Someone asked me what Mormon beliefs were regarding the matter and I replied; however, as someone else pointed out, it's completely moot as the correctness of Mormonism means very little in a discussion of non-Mormons. Quoting Mormon scripture or Mormon authorities would gain me nothing, which is to say that our opinions and views have no more merit than anyone elses.

I have an evangelical friend who believes that while humans have spirits, animals were created for man's use, to be used as companions, transportation, defense and food. After we're resurrected, humans will have no need of these things, and so they will blink out and we'll get over it as we keep developing.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in spirits, but they believe in a "soul" -- that is, intelligence and self-awareness. When we die, it's like flipping off a light switch. Later, Jehovah God will switch back on all the lights in a process they call resurrection. But he won't turn on the lights of animals. With the wicked, he will flip on their lights, judge them and flip them off again.

Then there are my atheist friends who declare that neither animals nor humans have "souls" or spirits. They point out there's no evidence at all that anyone or anything has a spirit, and further, that when people or animals die, there is no change in a body's weight. That said, just a few years ago, no one really was able to comprehend quantum physics. Scientists have been able to create anti-matter and have found certain particles that can exist simultaneously in different "universes" or deminsions. When I was born in 1953, none of this was on the table. And dark matter also was unheard of. So just because scientists have no evidence NOW of spirits doesn't prove anything. Of course the burden of proof is upon believers, not science, and is a matter of faith.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

LisaRose: Pretty pictures of cats do not substitute for a serious discussion. I no longer believe in what I was taught by a fraudulent faith from a mythical book and therefore I must also reject such fanciful notions as souls, spirits and ghosts.

You’re right. Photos mean nothing. Our discussions also ultimately mean nothing, as this is just a thread of personal opinions. Nothing in the Bible (“mythical book”) tells us one way or the other whether animals have spirits. And even if it did, many people (like you) who wouldn’t accept it. In my view...opinion...belief, souls, or intelligence, is eternal, having no beginning or end. As one of my professors pointed out, if you take your hand and put it on the top of your head, “that’s above you.” If you then put your hand on your nose, “that’s under, or below, you.” Still using your hand, you can map out “you” very simply. Obviously, it’s your brain, and all ancient cultures realized it. There’s nothing profound in this observation, but still, whether the brain is the depository of what defines YOU, or whether it simply houses your intelligence, that’s the issue.

Cofty: The question of conscious existence after death is a scientific question. Supernatural claims can be tested in a controlled environment and proven to be false. The idea of animals surviving death is just wishful thinking. Where do you draw the line? Horses, dogs, fish, birds, insects, bacteria?

I don’t draw a line, neither do I believe the existence of spirits and ghosts, and near death experiences, can be proven one way or the other. I’ve had personal experiences that have proven these things to my satisfaction. There are genuinely haunted places all over the world, and people who are genuinely possessed by evil spirits. Many people won’t agree that such is the case, and they’re entitled to their opinion. I’d love to take folks who are unbelievers like you into any one of a number of abandoned asylums, where people were horribly abused. I think I could change your mind in short order. I had a close friend who lived in a troubled house. It was very old, and the things he and his family experienced were frightening. They would hear footsteps on the floor above them, once or twice followed by a terrible crashing sound, as though someone had pushed over a dresser with the drawers full. When they went upstairs to inspect what happened, nothing would be out of place. At night, he said, light would sometimes appear on the wall, looking very much like car lights from outside. The strange thing about it, he added, is that if you held your hand up over the light to see where it was coming from, there would be no shadow. Apparently you could wave your hand in front of the lit wall and there would be no shadow. I never experienced these things personally, but I knew my friend’s character and he was an impeccably honest chap. His mother and father also backed up his stories, and they impressed me as also being honest folks.

Qcmbr: Please check PM.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

Geeesh, Heaven, I've had the same experiences. I thought it was just me. I'd be lying on the bed and would feel the distinct presence of my previous cat. Then I would feel something jump on the bed and I'd turn around half expecting to see him. I also awakened in the middle of the night with a pressure against my legs, and yet I knew there was nothing there. But I'm happy to hear that others have had the experience.

I like moggys a lot and I had a weird experience I've never been able to shake off. I got up one night to look for the cat and he wasn't at the front door, so I checked the back door. I saw Moggy out on the deck and I opened the door and called him. He came running over and I opened the door and he slipped in. I closed the door and began talking to him, but when I turned around he wasn't there. He normally comes with me over to the steps, then waits while I give him a rubdown. During the rubdown, he rubs his head against the wooden posts overlooking the downstairs. Then we go upstairs where I feed him.

But he wasn't at the bottom of the stairs, so I began calling him, but he was nowhere. That's when I began remembering that commercial about the lady who accidentally lets in the racoon. When I couldn't locate the cat, I went back upstairs and closed the bedroom door and went to bed. The next day I searched the entire house with a flashlight and a .22LR pistol. I wasn't intending to shoot anything, but I wanted to have some sort of security. (My sister had been bit by a racoon once and had to undergo rabies shots when it turned out to be rabid.)

Well, couldn't find the cat or racoon, but Moggy came in the next morning as usual. I can't imagine what, if anything, I could have let in, but I had just buried my parents' moggy and I wondered if it might have been him. But it was about as real an experience I've ever had. I wasn't sleepy, the memory wasn't muted or indistinct in any way; I was sure I let in a cat...a tiger striped cat. So go figure.

38

I went to the DC!!!!

by DATA-DOG in

it sucked.

the co said that the term, " the truth " means " truthful understanding of the scriptures.

" he also said that the truth does not change.

Cold Steel

Early Christianity focussed on a hoped for 'kingdom' centering on the return of Christ. When that did not happen in the expected time, the focus changed to everlasting soul-life in heaven.

Althouth this is a popular view, there's really no substance to it. Recall that Jesus spent 40 days with his disciples teaching them the mysteries. Given the prophecies put forth by Jesus and his apostles, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the dispersion of Judah to the four corners of the earth, a long period of apostasy that would last some 1260 years (Rev. 12:6), the fall of the Roman Empire and the establishment of independent nations, some strong and some weak (Daniel 2). They then wrote about a time of the "restoration of all things" (Acts 3), the restoration of Judah to the land of its inheritance, the rise of a Gentile despot called "the Beast," and his invasion of Jerusalem with a vast army (Rev. 11, Zech. 12-14). Then, after a fierce battle for the beleaguered city, Jesus appears and descends upon the Mount of Olives with ten thousands of his saints, he destroys the Beast and his army, sparing only a sixth of them. This is the true story of Armageddon.

The apostles knew all of the above because Jesus told them and they passed it on. It really wasn't something that could occur in their lifetimes. Jesus also told them that they would be killed and that wolves would enter the church not sparing the flock. Just before the Romans marched on Jerusalem, the apostles received revelation telling them to move the saints out of the city and into cities like Pella in the north, and they completely escaped the destruction of the Holy City.

Given that they understood prophecy, the Christian apostles knew all the things above had to be fulfilled. There's no way they could come to pass in their lifetimes, especially the 1260 years!

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

Interesting discussion so far. Many different opinions coming from people of varying backgrounds.

But watch this video. It makes me believe there is good in the world...and we know there is evil. It's a delicate balance and I can't believe that with the order of the Universe, and the beauty, that good ultimately overrules evil.

The Story of the Crow and the Cat

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

By "soul" I mean the thing within you that thinks and is. It's the thing that leaves when you die. Whether that soul is composed of simply brain cells or whether there's a spirit is moot. No one can prove one way or the other that people or animals have spirits. My initial post simply asks for your opinion. Me, I'd be crushed if I continued to exist but my animals didn't.

I have close friends of other religions and beliefs, and some have told me that they think humans, being the crowning creation of God, continue on after death. But animals were created for man as companions, creatures of nature, food, transportation and protection. Some have horribly mistreated animals and hunted them for sport. My uncle, sadly, killed many animals and birds simply for recreation. He had the heads of mountain goats and other animals mounted around his house and in closets. He especially enjoyed going to Metropolis and shooting crows with a shotgun.

One fellow, a minister in Paducah, Kentucky, had stuffed animals all over his house. I was assigned to write a newspaper article on him and when I interviewed him, he told me that he considered himself a modern "Noah," and the animal collection was a way to let school children see "God's glory of creation." He saw nothing wrong with what he was doing, traveling all over the world to kill exotic animals, and worse, he got his income from being a televangelist. I let him talk and quoted him accurately. The photographer took some astounding photos, but he wasn't able to restrain his distaste for the man. When the article came out, he was initially pleased, but then came a wave of criticism that caused a dramatic decrease in his contributions. First, we got a ton of mail, virtually all of it venting fury over what he was doing. Then the local television news station got ahold of him and he tried to answer this criticism and of course he only made it worse. He thought if he explained it from his point of view, people would see the wisdom behind it. Instead, another wave of criticism hit him and when I left, his preaching show was virtually dead...and he had no idea why people were steamed. After all, isn't that why God created those animals? What better way of showing the glory of God's creations than going to other parts of the world and blowing them into eternity?

2

I Claudius (Robert Graves) Herod also born in Bethlehem?

by hamsterbait in

interesting that in the novels "i claudius" and "claudius the god", when claudius (now emperor) herod, his friend until then had declared himself a god, and apparently somebody confirmed that he had been born in bethlehem, and therefore saw himself as the nations messianic leader.. what ancient source is this from?.

hb.

Cold Steel

I've read both books and highly recommend the DVDs of the BBC production. At first, I thought, "Hmmm...thick books" and didn't know whether to invest the time in reading them. But after reading them, I was ready for more.

Although Graves clearly intimated that Herod was at least claiming to be born in Jerusalem, history tells us that Herod was actually born in Edom, a city Jesus was critical of. Edom, or Idumea, was representative of "the world" and was viewed as wicked by the early Christians.

In the BBC production, here is some dialog:

I, Claudius: A God in Colchester (#1.12) (1976)

Claudius: But who is this "Messiah?"

Marsus: A king, Caesar, who is to come and redeem Israel of all its sins. Philo, their greatest living scholar says that he is to be descended from King David, and born in a village called, em...

[his aide whispers in his ear]

Marsus: What?

[the aide whispers again]

Marsus: Bethlehem.

[on Jesus Christ]

Claudius: So he has followers, then?

Marsus: Oh, yes, yes, it's a cult! There are always cults, Caesar.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

Qcmbr states the LDS position quite well. There is much we don't understand about spirit and intelligence. Christians differ on life after death. I just read that despite the fact the latest pope has given some respite to atheists, others in the Roman Catholic Church maintain that even if atheists do good works, they will go to hell. Talk about tough crowds!

There is no spirit realm inhabited by any kind of creature.

Well, if there is, you'll know it instantly when you pass from this life. And if you're right, we'll never know. When we die, things will go black, kind of like going under anesthesia, and that will be that. We'll be like a burned-out light bulb, to be discarded and of use to no one. But that would be preferable (to me) over reincarnation. My maternal grandfather insisted that his parents and friends who had passed on had visited him shortly before his passing. And my father told us he had seen his mother and had several conversations with her.

Then there is the account of the death of Stalin, one of the world's worst murderers, by his daughter, Svetlana: “Father was dying horribly and hard.. His face went dark and changed...his features were becoming unrecognisable. The agony was terrible. We could see how it was stifling him. At the last moment he suddenly opened his eyes. It was a horrid look—either mad, or angry and full of the horror, and sort of either pointed up somewhere, or shook his finger at us all.... The next moment his soul, having made its last effort, broke away from his body.”

In another account of the same event, Svetlana stated that although, at the very last, Stalin had seemed at most merely semiconscious, he suddenly opened his eyes and looked about the room, plainly terrified. Then, she recounted, “something incomprehensible and awesome happened that to this day I can’t forget and don’t understand.” Stalin partially lifted himself in the bed, clenched his fist toward the heavens, and shook it defiantly. Then, with an unintelligible murmur, he dropped motionless back onto his pillow and died.

(See Svetlana Alliluyeva, Twenty Letters to a Friend, trans. Priscilla J. McMillan (New York: Harper and Row, 1967), 5-11. See also the account given by Ravi Zacharias in his Harvard Veritas Forum, 19-20 November 1992. Alliluyeva, Stalin's daughter, was an eyewitness to the scene. Zacharias heard the story from Malcolm Muggeridge who, in his turn, based his report on three weeks of interviews with Alliluyeva, conducted for a three-part BBC series.)

There are no souls, angels, demons or gods.

There will be no resurrection.

This life you have right now is the only shot you'll ever have.

This is not a rehearsal for something else.

This, of course, is conjecture; however, if there is no God, you are correct. I would find it difficult to face life with such an outlook. For myself, I cannot believe that all the correct events just came together without any guiding or intelligent life. What events? The distance of the earth to the Sun; a moon foreign to our solar system of just the right mass, distance and size to stabilize the planet so it has a fixed equator; temperatures that keep the water from either freezing or boiling; the complexities and beauty of the earth and its life forms. As one prophet observed, all things in nature denote there is a God. And even renowned atheist Albert Camus changed his outlook late in life and even contemplated becoming a Catholic priest. Unfortunately, he was killed in a car accident.

That said, I don't believe that atheism leads to an eternal hell. Certainly if there is a God, He would not condemn someone for their heartfelt views. But I think there's something within man that will eventually lead them to question their commitment.

After murdering millions, Stalin is said to have
shaken his fist at the heavens on his deathbed.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

Shirley...or not...ummm...please look again at my post. Everyone's entitled to their beliefs and I'm not changing that. I'm not being critical of anything except closed minds. It matters not whether people believe in souls or not, or spirits or not. Since there's nothing in the Bible stating whether animals have souls, or spirits, then it becomes an issue for discussion. I can defend my own beliefs as I'm sure that others here can defend their beliefs.

One reason I don't cite LDS sources here is because those sources are not considered authoritative by those on this board. And when I ask questions like the one on animals and souls (intelligences), I'm trying to find out how other people think who don't hold my views.

No one here can prove their point, but their answers are still interesting to me. Why so defensive??

If you have issues regarding my religion, drop me a PM and I'll be happy to discuss it. Discussing it on a JW website at length isn't really appropriate.

165

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel in

i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.

by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).

where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?

Cold Steel

We don't have any idea how expansive the spirit world is or the other worlds the Lord created. But I suspect there's plenty of room for all life.

So, LDS has received this information by revelation? And, it's not in the Bible, right?

Correct. The first century Christians did not have a closed canon of scripture and neither do we. The notion that the Bible is the complete word of God is an old sectarian notion and has no basis in scripture. As long as God reveals new things, we'll have a growing body of scripture.

How can you criticize other religions, like Jehovah's Witnesses, for their beliefs when yours are just as incredibly untenable and based solely on personal opinions?

I'm not criticizing anyone. I'm asking for your opinions. The JWs believe animals have no souls and that when they're dead, they're dead. But that's not in the Bible, so they're guessing. And they're entitled to their opinions, just as you are and just as I am.

How are LDS "apostles" any different than the Watchtower's "governing body"?

Our apostles receive revelation, just as the ancient ones did. This includes visions, dreams, angels, theophanies, prophecy, and so forth. The GB of the Society claim to have the authority, but they have no witnesses to testify of it.

Are your pretend beliefs better than the next guy's pretend beliefs?

Well, if you're asking me, yes. Otherwise, I reckon I wouldn't be what I am. If I believed in Seventh Day Adventist beliefs, I'd be a SDA.

I don't think that an animal can come to believe in Christ.

It may be inborn. Just as our capabilities are retarded in this life, so is the intelligence of animals. People who have had near death experiences report that all life in the spirit world praises God in its own way, even the vegetation.

P.S. Did you HAVE to mention Kentucky Fried Chicken?? I'd give anything for a bucket. Popeye's also is great. (Plugola!)